Dead Robin’s Identity in ‘Batman v Superman’ Confirmed

Batman-v-Superman-SDCC-trailer-1-1940x847

With regard to Robin’s fate, it shouldn’t come to much surprise that the ongoing DCU will take inspiration from the Red Hood storyline. Zack Snyder and his crew suggested as much when they showed the boy wonder’s vacant, vandalized and memorialized suit loom mournfully in Batman’s cave within Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, and now, it’s official. The studio has confirmed the identity belongs to none other than Jason Todd, which all-but-confirms his fate in Ben Affleck’s forthcoming solo movie.

For those who are unaware, it was Jason Todd’s Robin who was killed by the Joker, only to be resurrected as the antihero Red Hood, a vigilante unafraid to kill. And while it’s unclear if, when or where the Red Hood angle will appear in forthcoming films, the Joker stray paint over Robin’s lost suit suggests Jared Leto’s interpretation of the villainous character is the one responsible for his downfall. And now WB Studio Tour Hollywood guide John confirms this is the studio’s plan in the following video found on their official Facebook page.

Here is the quote in question:

“This was one of the big things from Batman v Superman, right across this way. The Jason Todd Robin suit. Spray painted on the front ‘Ha ha. The joke’s on you Batman’. Those of you that know the storyline, know what happened to this Robin. Comic book fans, unite!”

This shouldn’t come as much of a shock to fans, but rather a solid confirmation for what’s to come in the next few years. And, I believe, it’ll only make Affleck’s character stronger — especially as his own solo film elaborates more on The Dark Knight’s morality, struggling insecurities and the weight carried endlessly on his shoulders in the wake of his sidekick’s passing. It’s pretty exciting stuff. Hopefully, though, WB can make it worth our while when the time is right.

Source: Batman News

 

Will Ashton

Will Ashton

Will is a writer for Heroic Hollywood, and a lot of other places too. One day he'll become Jack Burton. Just you wait and see.

  • Marquis de Sade

    I have all the faith that Ben Affleck won’t screw this up. WB/dceu just better hope that s.s. knocks it out the park, cuz if it’s another clusterf*!k like mos and bvs, then it’ll probably lead to a major bloodletting at dceu.

    • Napi

      Why are you always commenting on DCEU related posts? You like DC that much, eh?

      • Marquis de Sade

        It’s called “POSITIVE TRANSFERRENCE”. I feel that my positivity will rub off on dceu and compel them to do better. Their ineptitude is castin’ a negative light on the genre.

        • The poor quality of the movies doesn’t excuse trolling about them.

          • Marquis de Sade

            I troll dceu, cuz there’s no excuse for their ineptitude. MCU did all the heavylifting over the last 8 years to show every studio the DO’S and DON’TS, and wb/dceu continues to play the inattentive class dunce!

          • Yeah, they’ve been doing a really bad job so far. But if you troll one topic, you’re just as bad as someone else who trolls a different topic.

            It’s far better to make intelligent, constructive comments that aren’t specifically intended to annoy people with a different perspective.

          • JMMagwood

            LOL Do you know what you’re talking to with that comment?!?

          • Yes, I know. Also, that’s a really weird thing to laugh about.

          • JMMagwood

            I laugh because you’re wasting your time with that one. I disagree wholeheartedly about your opinions on DCEU, but you do make your opinions come across respectfully and constructively. You’re not trolling. That character is here for no other reason.

          • Marquis de Sade

            Oh, you’re so hot when you’re bein’ supercilious, Maggie.

          • JMMagwood

            Only when concerning you.

          • Marquis de Sade

            Stop it! You’re makin’ me blush.

          • JMMagwood

            I do have that effect on my admirers. 😉

          • Marquis de Sade

            So, whachoo wearin’?

          • JMMagwood

            LOL That’s TWO times you made me laugh out loud tonight! Maybe we’ll get along until “Suicide Squad” comes out.

          • Marquis de Sade

            Actually, I’m lookin’ forward to S.S.. But I swear, if it sucks in that “WHAT THA’ H3!! WERE THEY THINKIN'” level, I’ll reign down on it with some serious unforgiving clownin’.

          • JMMagwood

            I always want this stuff to be good. So far, FOR ME anyway, this has been a great year. I liked DP a lot, loved BvS and CW, and have hope that IDR and ST Beyond might be at least pretty good, and SS might be really good or great.

            If I think it’s bad, I’ll say it, no matter how much I wish it were otherwise. I did it with the last two Treks, GL, DKR, CA:TFA, Thor:TDW, and so many other things I wanted to love…

            But I don’t care if everyone hates something if I like it! lol

          • Marquis de Sade

            Yeah, the two JAR JAR ABRAMS Star Trek’s blowed and GL and Thor: TDW sucked. I too was initially disappointed with CA: TFA, but upon viewing it a few times on cable, It grew on me, but it still pales in comparison to the two sequels…Can’t stand Singer’s Xmen’s though. He just can’t seem to get the tone right.

          • JMMagwood

            I liked the first two, and First class, but everything else is dreck. FOX should never have given the X Men back to Singer. Vaughn was taking it in a good direction.

          • Marquis de Sade

            The first one was bland and the X2 had a few moments of inspiration, but came up short…Now the RATNER’S X3 was downright hurtful! It took the iconic DARK PHOENIX saga, and turned it into a cliff note afterthought. That was just unforgivable. First Class was decent, but DOFP was poorly paced. (Even the Rogue’s cut).

          • JMMagwood

            I never saw the Rogue cut. I couldn’t watch DoFP again. Couldn’t get past the silliness with Wolverine. X3 is one of the worst comic movies I’ve ever seen. It’s down there with Spider Man 3 and Catwoman.

            Honestly, I’m not a big X Men fan, but I’ve always thought there’s probably one good movie in there somewhere, and they just kinda missed it. I actually might prefer the last “Fantastic Four” to most of the “XMen” movies. Seriously. I didn’t completely hate it.

          • Marquis de Sade

            Actually the first half of Trank’s FF was decent, and would’ve been more acceptable if it was called something other than the “FF”. I don’t know why Fox felt the need to screw with Dr. Doom’s origin in both adaptations. Doom’s my all time favorite comic character.

          • JMMagwood

            Along with Batman, Reed, Ben, and Doom are my favorites. Concerning the “FF,” I don’t know why they’ve had to mess with it so much. You could just adapt anything from the first one hundred issues, and there’s a bunch of great movies. Or, the Byrne stuff. Or the Simonson stuff. Or the Hickman stuff. There’s great FF/Doom stories all over the place.

          • Marquis de Sade

            My hope is Fox letting FF go back to Marvel before the 7 year trademark expiration. In all honesty, it’s the peripheral characters and the FF’s rogue gallery of villains that’s the most coveted and value to Marvel…Can you imagine how intense the Infinity wars will be with the inclusion of The Silver Surfer, Galactus, The Watcher and The Skrulls?

          • JMMagwood

            That would be amazing. But seeing a true representation of the FF and Doom in a brilliant, big budget SF epic on the big screen is high on my bucket list.

          • Napi

            Stop it dude, please. Chill down

          • Marquis de Sade

            I am “CHILL”. Maybe you should take off your jacket. You seem awfully heated.

          • Well, thanks for the civil response. :)

            I wish this site’s comment section would be less incendiary in general. Perhaps someday they’ll step the moderation up a bit.

          • JMMagwood

            For the most part, the trolls that try so hard make me laugh, then I consider the amount of time some of them spend on here, and I get that slightly creepy feeling. If I don’t like something I don’t spend hours on a ‘net board trying to plague those that do like it. I’m all for criticism, even of stuff I love. I like the perspective of fans who have different opinions than mine, but if you attack me because I liked something you didn’t, then, there’s a problem.

          • Marquis de Sade

            Dude, this site is far from incendiary. You want incendiary, then I suggest you go to AIN’T IT COOL NEWS…In comparison, this site is downright civil…Sides’, I’ve been very civil on here. I’ve never resorted to calling people “IDIOT” and other colorful adjectives cuz I’m not a dc sycophant.

          • I really just meant in general. You’re not the one who scares the smart commenters away. That guy who shall not be named deserves a little teasing. But always, discussing the actual topic intelligently is the best possible use of a comment section IMO.

          • Marquis de Sade

            Fair enough!

          • SAMURAI36

            You really have some nerve. You offer nothing of value, every time you post.

            I could care less about this other dude, but at least he’s not a hypocrite, like you are.

          • Of course you could care less. That goes without saying.

            https://incompetech.com/Images/caring.png

          • SAMURAI36

            Yeah, that was completely stupid. I know you thought you were saying something high-brow, but seriously, try harder next time, slugger.

          • It’s funny that you think the basics of grammar and having your words make sense are stupid.That explains a lot, really.

          • SAMURAI36

            Except your words don’t make sense. It’s beyond the grammar and syntax. Especially when your words don’t match your deeds.

          • What doesn’t make sense about understanding the phase “couldn’t care less?”

            If you legitimately didn’t understand the meaning of the image, you can always check the source article for a more thorough explanation: https://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/care_less.html

          • SAMURAI36

            Actually, I’d ask you the same thing. This guy is hilarious, because he does pretty much the same thing. This is just pots and kettles at this point.

          • Marquis de Sade

            We all choose our own paths, Paul.

          • SAMURAI36

            You’re one to talk.

  • unpaidpundit

    A lot of hard core DC fans won’t care about this, because the media film critics made them hate anything to do with “Batman v. Superman.”

    • Carl

      BvS made people hate BvS… lol

    • It’s more likely the poor quality of the movie that caused people to dislike it.

      • Lupin

        I wholeheartedly disagree. BvS is high quality filmmaking. Most of the criticisms of BvS have been so inconsistent and vague. Most of its detractors don’t even know why or where their hate stems from.
        Most people, I surmise from the miscontruing of its themes and vague criticsms, simply do not understand what they saw. Or they mistake a preference for actual analysis. Here are some specific examples.
        BvS is too grim/dark, not “fun”, mopey character’s etc. Essentially it is not anecessary action comedy. It seems that nowadays the paradigm has shifted so much that audiences think the degree to which a superhero film makes you laugh is the measure of its worth. It’s the MARVEL formula. BvS takes a more arcane literary tradition of storytelling, it’s a sprawling epic focusing not on interpersonal relationships but in broad themes in a serious weighty manner. But audiences are primed to expect different, not an Elizabethan Tragedy.
        A very complex narrative. BvS’ plot structure is similar to that of an indie film or Oscar film like ‘The Big Short.’ It goes back and forth tracking many characters storylines’ leading to one merging point. Batman/Bruce Wayne, Superman/Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Lex Luthor. Most of our modern day blockbusters follow one or 2 at most, main stories. If your mind is not engaged and ready for the juggling and keeping track of different streams of information one can get lost. I think this caught many off guard and a lot of the animosity towards it is a frustration by people lashing out at something they didn’t understand. It takes several watchings to fully understand it … took me 3.

        • SuperBuckeye30

          Ahhh, the old “you didn’t understand it” defense. Just stop it with that nonsense. The criticisms of the movie are very valid and you even have people behind the scenes starting to admit some of the mistakes that were made. There there was nothing complex about its narrative that we haven’t seen a hundred times before. It seemed like it was heading in the right direction, but then it completely derailed the last 2/3. But please stop trying to insult other people’s intelligence as a way to try and justify why this movie is good.

          • Lupin

            BTW as a caveat I didn’t say ALL, but from what I’ve seen – most. Most criticisms either fall under it’s not my preference so it sucks (as invalid as saying blue is a bad color because I prefer purple) or the didn’t understand several plot points.
            & I’m not trying to be condescending, there’s many movies that I didn’t understand when I first saw them and regarded them as rubbish like ‘Enemy’, ‘Sucker Punch’ etc.
            For you what exactly did you find that derailed it? And how would you rate it on a scale of 1-10?
            For me it’s a 9/10, near perfect … waiting for the Ultimate Cut.

        • breakerbaker

          You liked it. Most people didn’t. Don’t overcompensate.

          • SAMURAI36

            There you go, LYING again. Most people liked to loved it. The minority, like you, didn’t like it. Even though neither you nor they can explain why.

          • breakerbaker

            Dude, just as a reminder, I don’t think very highly of your capacity for honesty, most especially with yourself. You’re maybe the most comically (as in hilariously not as in having to do with “comics”) biased person I’ve ever seen. You have zero credibility, taste, or self-awareness. You’re quite pitiful actually, with your desperate trolling of anybody who says anything you don’t like. I assure you that it is not achieving the effect you would like. You think you’re fighting a good fight. You’re embarrassing yourself.
            Continuing to spout nonsense about how much everybody liked to loved BvS despite the fact that its entire box office take got destroyed by Civil War in the first 10 days is just hard to watch. If most people liked to loved it, it would have cleared a billion dollars a long time ago. At this point, it’s not even going to beat MoS–a movie I liked a lot more than most people.

          • SAMURAI36

            Yeah, yeah…. All that nonsense you said was nice, but none of that changes the fact that you are in the minority of people who disliked this film.

            And you can’t provide a single shred of evidence to demonstrate otherwise.

            So keep singing that song, and I’ll keep chanting it down.

          • breakerbaker

            And your evidence to that a majority of people liked to loved it is…what? Is it completely informed by voluntary audience reviews and rankings online? You view that as reliable metric (i.e., you think the people who take the time out of their lives to contribute to that kind of thing are representative of the audience at large)? I would call you stupid for believing that but it seems redundant to do so. You can’t point to social media buzz on this because the most vocal on a movie generally do not represent the audience.

            Meanwhile, evidence supporting my view of reality is that this is a movie that opened big with a simultaneous worldwide opening and then experienced historic drop offs on nearly a daily basis for the first two weeks of its run, after which, the movie more or less fell completely off the map. This is circumstantial, but it would certainly point to bad word of mouth. And that in combination with reviews and the way other movies of the genre tend to perform paint a pretty stark picture. And that picture is not a movie that most people liked.

          • SAMURAI36

            And your evidence to that a majority of people liked to loved it is…what? Is it completely informed by voluntary audience reviews and rankings online? You view that as reliable metric (i.e., you think the people who take the time out of their lives to contribute to that kind of thing are representative of the audience at large)? I would call you stupid for believing that but it seems redundant to do so.

            I go by the fact that nearly every single audience rating system that I’ve seen thus far, lists favorable ratings for for BVS. I can easily list a dozen different sites, all of which rank BVS as no less than 3.5 or 4/5, or 7 or 8 out of 10.

            You can’t point to social media buzz on this because the most vocal on a movie generally do not represent the audience.

            Why on earth would I use “social media buzz” as a barometer for anything? Especially when the reviews of 300 people shifted the momentum of the film?

            I would really be retarded to utilize that as a measurement of anything.

            Meanwhile, evidence supporting my view of reality is that this is a movie that opened big with a simultaneous worldwide opening and then experienced historic drop offs on nearly a daily basis for the first two weeks of its run, after which, the movie more or less fell completely off the map. This is circumstantial, but it would certainly point to bad word of mouth. And that in combination with reviews and the way other movies of the genre tend to perform paint a pretty stark picture. And that picture is not a movie that most people liked.

            So wait, you admit to this being “circumstantial”, but you wanna condemn me for having actual concrete evidence of audience reception? You know, based on what the audience actually said?

            Also, how you think you are able to count “historic drop offs” as an indicator of anything. All box office drop off counts for, is people who DID NOT SEE THE FILM. In case your brain isn’t working (which it’s clearly not), those people aren’t allowed to have an opinion o a film they’ve never seen.

            And do you really wanna use “similar” films as a barometer for this film? Really? The juvenile jokefest marathon is an indicator of what, exactly? The standard that should be followed? Is the really the sword you wanna die on?

            You have no point here. You can’t provide a single metric, and don’t think I didn’t notice how you tried to shift the focus in your “proof”, while trying to lock me in with.

            As usual, you have no point here. As has been demonstrated in the past, you didn’t even pay attention to the film when you saw it.

            When you make these retarded statements like trying to tell people who liked the film, without any proof, you only make yourself look like even more of an idiot.

          • breakerbaker

            Your audience analysis ratings are nothing more than the product of voluntary surveys. There’s nothing remotely scientific about them. They are the equivalent of an online poll. It’s one of the most basic forms of social media. It’s not concrete evidence. It’s not evidence of anything other than that there were people who were motivated m to create the perception of a very good to great movie. There were over 100,000 audience ratings on Rottentomatoes before the movie had even opened. It’s an easily rigged system if you are motivated. And those that are not as easily rigged tend to do their surveys during previews or opening weekend when the audience disproportionately comprises the most fervent fans. People who were emotionally invested in loving the movie long before they saw it (people like you). This naturally skews those types of surveys positive. Everybody understands this. You understand this. You’re just not honest, which what everybody expects from you.

            What isn’t in dispute is that the movie opened very large on Friday, then had a big drop from Friday to Saturday and an even larger drop from Friday to Sunday. And then, the following weekend, it had one of the larger drops from week 1 to week 2 in the history of the genre–a percentage that was in line with some of the most universally loathed movies from the genre. Like it or not, that evidence is far more meaningful than any audience rating system.

            Stop being so insecure that you have to make believe the world loves the things you love in order to validate your own opinion. Stop trying to troll people who disagree with you. You’re allowed to like something that most people think is terrible. As I’ve told you many times over, I’m glad you liked it (I don’t know if your heart would have held up to not liking it). I have no interest in making you feel bad for really liking it; nor am I trying to convert you. And I take no pride in not liking it. And the last thing I believe is that I would need my opinion validated by others reactions. If most people had liked the movie, I’d have no problem acknowledging that. It just didn’t happen that way. The fact that you can’t admit that is only evidence of how weak your ego is. Nothing more.

          • SAMURAI36

            Your audience analysis ratings are nothing more than the product of voluntary surveys. There’s nothing remotely scientific about them. They are the equivalent of an online poll.

            Wow, that sounds soooo retarded. So, what’s unscientific about me saying “I liked BVS”? If I vote it up, am I somehow lying about it?

            Oh wait, I forgot, you said that people who liked the film are lying to themselves about liking it.

            And you wonder why no one here is taking you seriously here.

            It’s one of the most basic forms of social media. It’s not concrete evidence. It’s not evidence of anything other than that there were people who were motivated m to create the perception of a very good to great movie.

            OMG, you’re talking soooo stupid.

            Here’s an example of my evidence:

            http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Superman-Theatrical-3D-Blu-Ray-UltraViolet/dp/B01DEBC7ZW?ie=UTF8&colid=2GOALD3A16IQ0&coliid=I3IXZNQP1ZS7Z9&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl

            Look at the reviews here, and tell me WTF these concrete numbers have to do with any of the nonsense you’re dreaming up?

            Go ahead, I’ll wait. And BTW, that’s just ONE site like that. I have a half dozen more sites at the ready.

            There were over 100,000 audience ratings on Rottentomatoes before the movie had even opened. It’s an easily rigged system if you are motivated. And those that are not as easily rigged tend to do their surveys during previews or opening weekend when the audience disproportionately comprises the most fervent fans. People who were emotionally invested in loving the movie long before they saw it (people like you). This naturally skews those types of surveys positive. Everybody understands this. You understand this. You’re just not honest, which what everybody expects from you.

            Yeah, I do understand this. Which is why I don’t use RT as a guage for ANYTHING. It’s entire system is broken, from front to back.

            But here’s also what I understand, which you don’t seem to:

            Not all of the “critic” reviews are valid on RT either. See, the problem is, most people (including YOU), take RT as some sort of movie gospel. It’s funny though, that you can spot the flaws in the audience reviews/ratings, but not in the critic ones.

            Some of the “critics” are from sites which have ZERO credibility in the scheme of things. I mean, the ones from Washington Post and NY Times, I can live with. But why are you, or anyone else taking the opinions of sites like:

            http://www.rottentomatoes.com/critic/ben-sin/

            And:

            http://www.rottentomatoes.com/critic/luis-resendiz/

            And:

            http://www.rottentomatoes.com/critic/luis-caviaro/

            And:

            http://www.rottentomatoes.com/critic/felix-hubble/

            And:

            http://www.rottentomatoes.com/critic/adrian-ruiz/ (this guy’s page doesn’t even exist anymore)

            I could go on, but I won’t. Since you’re the resident genius on here, I want you to tell the rest of the class, what all these “critics” have in common, and what’s wrong with them.

            And that’s not counting the several redundant reviews, the reviews that present a conflict of interest, and those reviews that demonstrate that reviewer didn’t even watch the movie.

            And you know how I know? Because I combed thru all 17 pages of these reviews. Many of them sound like they were written by an 8 year old. And you can tell that many “critics” had an axe to grind.

            But just like most people, you didn’t even look. You want to use RT as some sort of demonstration of your “proof”, but just like the worst Bible Thumpers, you use a book that they’ve never even read as ammo against people who more than likely have read their book more than they have, you are totally outclassed here.

            What isn’t in dispute is that the movie opened very large on Friday, then had a big drop from Friday to Saturday and an even larger drop from Friday to Sunday. And then, the following weekend, it had one of the larger drops from week 1 to week 2 in the history of the genre–a percentage that was in line with some of the most universally loathed movies from the genre.

            Of course it’s not “in dispute”, and it never was. That’s because it’s not germane to the subject.

            Like it or not, that evidence is far more meaningful than any audience rating system.

            Yeah, I see more and more, that something is really wrong with you.

            Pray-tell, please explain to me, how people who haven’t even seen the movie, matter in a gauging system of how well people liked the film?

            It’s completely asinine that you are even trying to make this point.

            Stop being so insecure that you have to make believe the world loves the things you love in order to validate your own opinion. Stop trying to troll people who disagree with you. You’re allowed to like something that most people think is terrible.

            There you go, saying the same retarded nonsense. NOTHING you said here, proves that you are in the majority. Not a single thing.

            As I’ve told you many times over, I’m glad you liked it (I don’t know if your heart would have held up to not liking it). I have no interest in making you feel bad for really liking it; nor am I trying to convert you.

            Man, you’re such the liar. You’re on record of having made a few disparaging statements about people who like/love BVS; you’ve questioned our mental acumen, our honesty, and the like.

            Again, this is why you don’t get taken seriously here. You’re a liar and a hypocrite, and a delusional one at that.

            And I take no pride in not liking it. And the last thing I believe is that I would need my opinion validated by others reactions. If most people had liked the movie, I’d have no problem acknowledging that. It just didn’t happen that way. The fact that you can’t admit that is only evidence of how weak your ego is. Nothing more.

            Except you can’t admit that most people liked it. I’m not saying that it’s the overwhelming majority, 3-4 out of 5 is the majority. 7-8 out of 10 is the majority.

            It’s just that you’re one of the Sheeple that has bought into the negative narrative surrounding the film, simply because you were one of the FEW that didn’t like it.

            And, even your basis for not liking it is questionable, with all the schizoid acrobatics you tried to perform to justify how Batman never killed in the very comics that the film was actually based on.

            You’re 10lbs of retarded, in a 5lb man purse. Give it up, dude.

          • Lupin

            The venom in this comment made my day! haha
            Ration and logic always trumps emotion

          • JMMagwood

            I’m trying to avoid the BS of arguing about these movies, but what in the name of Galactus is he talking about?? “BvS” has far surpassed the box office of “MoS” so I don’t get that at all. I’m not fighting with people who think $870 million, and counting, is some terrible failure. By no standard is the film a failure. None. Did it disappoint? Sure, to some degree, but by all measures it’s still a hit. It’s a dichotomy, for certain. Get over yourselves, and celebrate the success of “Civil War.”

          • SAMURAI36

            Dude, I have no clue. I’ve danced this dance with him before, and it becomes more and more nonsensical with each bout.

            But yeah, notice how other than the box office results, nobody is really talking about CW?

          • JMMagwood

            Yeah, this is where the problems come in. Guys like that are pushing the idea now that if a movie doesn’t clear a billion freaking dollars, then it’s some hated failure. It’s nuts.

            “CA:CW” isn’t going to make more than the last “Fast and Furious.” Is that now a disappointment? It lost its’ third weekend to “Angry Birds.” Is that a failure on Marvel’s part??

            Now these people want us to believe everyone hated “BvS.” More nonsense. Did everyone love it? Nope, but the box office would indicate people liked it, but like a lot of properties these days, some decided to wait for home video to see it. Let’s not go overboard either way.

            By this guy’s standards, “BvS” is more liked than just about any other movie that will come out this year, because only two or three upcoming releases have a remote shot at making more money than “Batman v Superman.” By his own arguments, the DCEU is off to a roaring start. It did well. People generally enjoyed it, but for many it could have been better. Some corrections would probably be recommended if they want the box office to get well past the billion dollar hump. WB is working on it. How about both sides come back to Earth and breathe some air?

          • SAMURAI36

            Yeah, he really does seem to have an axe to grind against this film.

            It’s no different from how people claimed MOS was so terrible, yet it made another $125M in video sales. How does that happen, exactly?

            Listen, I get that BVS wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, and I get that it wasn’t the mainstream, accepted by everyone, success that many of Marvel’s output is. But as you said, that’s a p!ss-poor comparison to make, since it’s been evident in several ways, that DC is not trying to be Marvel.

          • JMMagwood

            Look, this is just me, but I think the biggest change DCE needs to make is how they approach the media and the critics with their properties. If people are honest, “BvS” certainly wasn’t nearly as bad as some critics make it out to be, but we’re in oddball times with people who have these battle lines drawn up for various reasons. Let’s be honest: Right now, being on the Marvel side of the DC vs. Marvel rift is the place to be. It’s a cheap pop. If the critics had loved the movie, and it made the same amount to the penny, you wouldn’t see some of the reactions that we’re seeing here. The fact that the critics dumped on it have given some lease to hate the movie, and bandwaggoners are always ready to pile on. There was a time it was always genre people against the reviewers, but those days are over. It’s sad, but true.

            My issue, more than anything else, is I believe some national critics had an axe to grind for some reason or other, and local critics across the country often follow suit, sometimes never actually watching a movie than they’re panning. That’s crap, but it’s gone on for many years.

          • SAMURAI36

            Not only do I agree with the axe to grind aspect (see my retort to one of the idiots here), but that’s precisely what it’s about.

            Also, you’re correct, that the Marvel side is like cheap pop. It has just enough style and flavor, to disquise the fact that it completely lacks substance.

          • JMMagwood

            I didn’t say that, I just meant that siding with the successful guys and dumping on the guys who are still working their way up is an easy way to get people on your side.

            “A cheap pop” is a wrestling term for an easy way to get the crowd on your side. Like coming to someone’s town and saying “It’s great to be back in XXXXXX tonight!” And the crowd roars. It’s easy applause.

          • Lupin

            Im not overcompensating, just using my intelligence to understand the world better. Also Im exchanging ideas with people so I can learn from them and they can learn from me
            Did you like, love, dislike or loather BvS and why? How would you rate it?

          • breakerbaker

            Strictly speaking, you’re not really exchanging ideas. You’re attempting to de-legitimize criticism of the movie. You should simply stick with “I disagree” and leave it at that–or disagree and then make your positive argument for why you liked it. The tendency here is to try to shut people down, rather than offer an honest and respectful dialogue.

            Because you asked, I’ll rehash what I thought of the movie. I did not like it. It was easily the movie I have anticipated the most for the last several years, and I really did not like it much at all. My criticism of the choices they made is pretty extensive. I’ll mostly ignore the characterization, which I didn’t like at all (for the record) and focus instead on topics related to storytelling.

            Broadly, the movie lacks a true “through line.” It’s not particularly confusing, but the sequential progression of the movie from scene to scene lacks a clarity of purpose/cohesiveness. At least part of the problem has been explained by the film’s editor who revealed that all of the Lex Luthor stuff was supposed to come much later in the movie. To cut it down to size, they decided they needed to get the villain front and center early on, and the result is a pretty incoherent assembly of scenes cut together that were not written to go together and still don’t.

            The movie tries too hard to be “epic” by stacking plotline on top of plotline on top of plotline. They really needed a simpler approach to tell the same story. Because what they ended up with is a total mishmash of bad and conflicting decisions.

            The movie leans way too heavily on a series of introspective storytelling crutches. It opens with character narration (though for some really weird reason, it never returns to that late on). It then gives the audience two (or three) dream sequences neither of which contain any dialogue and both which are essentially melodramatic attempts at character development and extremely heavy handed symbolism. It has a character flashback. It has a character flash-forward. It has a completely different character hallucinate a conversation with the ghost of his dead father (and it’s not clear if the audience is supposed to read that as a memory of an earlier conversation or a new conversation with a ghost of a man from Kansas who just happens to hang out in the Canadian Rockies). These are things the movie chooses to do to establish who these characters are rather than have its characters actually talk to one another. Because rational thinking and conversation is the enemy of this movie.

            Superman doesn’t utter a single word while dressed as Superman until he decides to do the super hero sequel cliche I-don’t-want-to-be-a-hero walkabout. The movie hints at back story that would be far more interesting and impactful to the narrative than what it does show. It doesn’t even mention the name Robin/Jason, but it wants the audience to know the significance of that suit. Meanwhile, too much of the bulk of dialogue we do get is wasted on untold minutes of plot on the Congressional hearings and Holly Hunter’s character only to wipe that slate clean in a giant explosion that does nothing more than move plot and reveal how much of a hero this Superman isn’t.

            Really, too much of what happens in the movie is more about moving plot than exploring interesting or deep thematic ideas. Even the stuff that is supposed to be good character development stuff is just more plot–or is revealed to be unimportant because of plot. The central philosophical conflict that is meant to be at the movie’s core is completely marginalized by turning Lex Luthor into a mustache twirling homicidal maniac who has been trying to get these two to fight since before the first scene. The movie spends a lot of time trying to build this contrast between the two characters, the nature of heroism and power and ethics, and then in the span on like five minutes, it undermines that entire conversation by saying that the only reason we’re talking about those things is that a bad man is manipulating us. So I guess we can forget about all of that now, it served its purpose, which was to create a contrivance that would allow a fight to take place. And as if to completely how trivial all of the previous 2 hours had been, the movie allows the fight to pivot on the Martha line (I could go on forever about why the Martha bit is a horrid bit of storytelling, but I will let that go).
            The movie then forces the Doomsday bit because, it seems structurally obligated to have a literal team-up. Then we have the completely premature DoS bookend that apparently only happened because Zack Snyder didn’t want Superman to be a founding member of the Justice League.

            When people call it a mess, they mean it. When they call incoherent, they don’t mean that they don’t understand it. They mean that the basic story they were trying to tell is compromised by the way they decided to tell it.

            You’re welcome to disagree. I don’t dislike you for liking the movie. But the reasons people don’t like it (and I haven’t even gotten into the characterization) are sound.

          • Lupin

            “I disagree” and leave it at that is certainly not exchanging ideas. It is simply stating an opinion, which does have its value in informing the person you’re conversing with that differing ideas do exist.
            Thanks for your points on why you didn’t like BvS. What I love about your reasons is that NONE of them are of the variety that I consider (my opinion) to be invalid such as characterization, since nobody owns any of these characters and they have been interpreted in many ways over almost a century of storytelling, or plot holes/character motivations, which are clearly defined in the film although they demand rapt attention and application of intellect to piece together.
            In terms of how the movie is edited, I didnt have a problem with it. While this issue has been raised and debated ad nauseum, “most” people who have seen the film understood the plot. So even it is was not “perfect” it was effective, therefore in my opinion that is not enough to say it is a terrible film. For me, I had no problems with the editing. It was edited and paced like a drama with several character story archs are running towards a collision point (the Batman versus Superman fight). It actually reminds me of ‘The Big Short’ (2015) a movie that was notoriously a mental juggling act for audiences. It also reminds me of graphic novels and comicbook that juggle several story lines. So it wasn’t very foreign to me. I think this style of storytelling for a superhero blockbuster caught many audiences off-guard and they weren’t able to follow the story. I think once audiences watch the UC a few times it will gain more appreciation
            One things that ties into this is that this is one of the most ambitious big blockbusters Ive seen in years! BvS took huge balls for a studio to make. it’s kinda sad that its getting panned, it will make execs gun shy. I think the critics and detractors are doing the genre a huge disservice by dismissing ALL OF IT.
            As for a through line. I have to strongly disagree with you here. The through line is Batman getting Kryptonite to kill Superman. Everything happens around and off of this through line. IMO this speaks to the fact that BvS was a very ballsy film for not telling the story in the formulaic 3 part arch hero’s journey way that most blockbusters are told. It’s told using a 5 part Elizabethan tragedy drama style.
            I also disagree with you issue with the Doomsday inclusion. The film is structured similar to Excalibur (1983). There is a symbolic cure in the murder of the Wayne’s scene – “EXCALIBUR – COMING SOON”. In Excalibur, Arthur gets manipulated into fighting Lancelot, he has to use a magical weapon he realizes and throws the weapon into a lake with the help of ‘the lady of the lake’ then he and Lancelot team up to defeat an adversary of unholy creation and he looses his life while inflicting the final blow to the creature. So this is not an unusual or forced story arch, it pays homage to a classic movie. The problem is that fans of ‘The Death of Superman’ have the standalone run/trade paperback etched in their mind and so want that film alone. However there are two problems with this critique: 1) Doomsday is merely a weapon, he is literally a Doomsday device 2) The Death of Superman as a standalone film will not be an original tale, it will lack excitement. I think it was perfectly placed here and it has a place in the saga of this Superman. I can understand your point, but I hope you see how for me, it is well done.
            I dont dislike you for disliking the film and I definitely think you have very valid reasoning. Especially the editing and pacing which is so subjective. It comes down to how people want their stories to be told. Also I can understand wanting to save and icon like Doomsday for a standalone feature, I think that would be good but I think it’s also good here.
            TBH of all the criticisms Ive heard, yours are some of the most valid and well thought out.

        • SAMURAI36

          Wow, best post on the internet today. Could not have said it better.

        • JMMagwood

          Great, great posting. This poster sees the movie the way I do, so I’m sure they’ll be attacked.

          • SAMURAI36

            Yep, it’s already started.

    • JMMagwood

      Only the sheep, which sadly, there are far too many of.

      • hobbes

        Callow trolls like you only call them sheep if they disagree with your opinion. Fact is that audiences rarely go along with the popular opinion just because it’s popular; Hamilton isn’t a massive success because of sheep mentality, nor is Civil War.

        Now, sometimes some films can create a unique experience in the theater. For example, Avatar, which everyone raved about at the time but I have not met a single person who has anything positive to say about it now. But even that wasn’t a ‘sheep’ mentality, it was an experience that could not be recreated at home, so once it was out of theaters the interest waned.

        BvS gave people a Batman that kills indiscriminately (yet let Joker live?), an ADD Lex Luthor (with yet another guaranteed to fail plan), and a Superman raised on the ethics of Ayn Rand. These characters were successful in comics, TV, and movies for a reason, because they are believable and relatable. When you make extreme changes to their characters even someone who isn’t familiar with these characters in their comic book form will sense something is off, because they’ve become less relatable. And if an audience has difficulty relating to the characters then they’re not going to enjoy the movie as much.

        You were able to enjoy and relate to the characters, you mentally made the effort to justify the fundamental changes that were made. Good for you, glad you enjoyed the movie, but dismissing people who didn’t enjoy the movie as “sheep” just makes you look like an a-hole. People have different opinions about things, grow up and accept it instead of whining like a child.

        • JMMagwood

          You’re just a stupid fool. You can’t comprehend the comments. The OP made a comment about hardcore DC fans who now hate “BvS” because of media pressure. I’ve seen some posters who claimed to like the film at first, and then abruptly changed their minds after the fallout started. I call THOSE specific people sheep, especially. I do believe we have too many in our society who follow the prevailing winds instead of determining and following their own opinions, but that’s mostly a discussion for more important things than movies.

          The troll here is YOU, because you’re another who used a reason to attack because you didn’t like the movie. All your vitriolic blather was wasted here, goof.

          • SAMURAI36

            LMAO. great retort.

    • flavortang

      I loved BvS so the critical response didn’t matter to me personally. I just want future movies to be responded to more favorably because, unfortunately, many casual movie-goers look to critics’ responses to determine whether they’ll see a movie so future DCEU movies can only be helped by positive word.

    • Ruben C Barron

      I enjoyed the film, but I didn’t like it. I consider myself a hardcore DC fan and I do care about this. I would love to see this story play out on film. Batman’s son died and then comes back to life angry at his father for not avenging him. I’d watch this over and over again.

      • SAMURAI36

        How do you enjoy something and not like it simultaneously??

        • JMMagwood

          I don’t quite get his point either.

          • SAMURAI36

            Glad to know I wasn’t the only one.

    • SAMURAI36

      I’m a hard core DC fan, and I care.

  • Carl

    Sounds good to me but did anyone see that other shot of the Robin suit where you could see it had shorts? Laughable choice in this dark and gritty world.

    • Marquis de Sade

      Yep, nuthin’ like some opal-colored Daisy Dukes to convey “DARK n’ GRITTY”. LOL!

    • henryducard

      The whole point was there was a time where it wasn’t that dark and that’s when robin existed.

      • Carl

        Yeah a time when you could murder fools with a halberd while wearing an armored suit that doesn’t protect your arms or legs. lol

        • henryducard

          Remember the scene where Alfred said changing the rules sir? We already know batmans rules which means he didn’t kill then either. You should also look up what a halberd is.

          • Carl

            A throw away line that could mean anything doesn’t excuse killing. I called it a halberd because an article about the full pic called it that. Go look at the full pic, it’s damn close to a halberd. Not much of a better name to call it.

          • henryducard

            I never excused the killing and Alfred was pretty irritated as well. All I said was that was a reference to the fact that he’s changed his rules and become more brutal. Try to keep up.

          • Carl

            The movie is bad and any justification for it’s problems are pointless. Try not to be a jerk about it.

          • henryducard

            I never stated an opinion which is why I said try to keep up. You seem to be confusing opinion with fact and vice versa. All I did was stare the point of certain aspects which were explained multiple times before the movies release. I explained facts not opinions. Affleck and Snyder as well as the prequel comics reference that batman was much lighter prior to the kryptonians appearance and the whole reason Alfred mentions batmans rules is because he had changed them. There’s no opinion in any of that and your opinion of the film is subjective and entirely your own which is why I said, and will reiterate please try to keep up.

          • Carl

            It’s not explained in the movie so it’s your opinion. Keep up.

  • JMMagwood

    I’m not crazy about “Under The Red Hood,” but it would be cool to see it play out onscreen. I’d rather see an amazing detective story which pits all of Batman’s skills against someone his equal in every way, but this will be cool.

    • Fenix

      Me too. But Red is a cool story arc. Though, I’d rather they do Court of Owls and bring in Scott Snyder.

      • JMMagwood

        Definitely agree. Court of Owls onscreen would be great. How about a one one war against Prometheus? I’d pay double for that.

        • flavortang

          I saw shades of Court of Owls in Skyfall.

          • JMMagwood

            Yep, there were similarities. I guess Bond did most of that first, though. lol

          • SAMURAI36

            Never saw Skyfall, but the concepts of COO are rather ancient. Secret Societies are a deep seated concept in literature. I just like how they did it with Batman.

          • flavortang

            My oldest son wants a COO story in the DCEU. COO is his favorite Batman storyline.

          • SAMURAI36

            I’ts one of mine as well. I’m calling it now: COO is going to be one of the ubiquitous Batman storylines, across DC’s multimedia.

          • Fenix

            You never saw Skyfall?! What is wrong with you. I swear you have such crappy taste.

          • SAMURAI36

            There you go with that nonsense. I could say the same about you. But I’m not much of a Bond fan, never really have been.

          • Fenix

            Give Skfall a try it’s very good.

      • Lupin

        Court of Owls is more effective after a few Batman stories that establishes him as the protector of Gotham.
        I think a cat & mouse Deathstroke batman story would be awesome done in the vein of “10 nights of the Beast”. I love their duels in the Arkham Knight series we can get some good one v one action in several set pieces.
        Also in order to show off his detective skills we should get a Riddler story but it should be the Jim Carey/Arkham Knight type Riddler, it should be a serial killer, anonymous mastermind type Riddler like Se7en or Zodiac Killer.
        So for a trilogy I’d like to see Deathstroke (action heavy), The Riddler (detective heavy) & The Court of Owls w/ Talon (well balanced combination of detective and action)

        • SAMURAI36

          Yeah, Deathstroke is one of my fave villains, & the Arkham fights ramped up my appreciation for him all that much more.
          DS carries all of the tropes that make for a near perfect character, the likes of Batman himself. Like Bruce, Slade is flawed in his perfection, & he’s also the patriarch of his legacy. Also, other villains seem to fear him, much in the way that other heroes fear Batman.
          If DS doesn’t make his debut in SS, as the early rumors suggested, then the Batman solo film would be the perfect place for him.

    • SAMURAI36

      Man, I absolutely love UTRH. I really hope that’s the back drop of the Batman solo film. I wouldn’t mind the Court of Owls being in there either.

      • JMMagwood

        I’m definitely not a Judd Winnick fan, so the story’s execution left me less than cold.

        As a concept, I like it, but I must confess I’m weary of stories that are so personal to the hero these days. Like the recent James Bond movies, everything ends up relating personally to the central character. I’d like to see Batman just take on a bad guy or group of bad guys that are evil and their efforts are for their own selfish ends, and have nothing to do with Batman directly. Just me, I guess.

        • SAMURAI36

          I’m not mad at you for that. But, there seems to be quite a bit of Batman stories that are more along the lines of “personal”. In fact, it seems like the most popular Batman stories are ones that resonate on a personal level.

          • JMMagwood

            You’re absolutely right. The reason those type of stories are so popular is because they used to be special and unusual. Now, it seems like every story is “A Very Special Story” because it’s something personal to the hero.

            I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember, but there used to be this saccharine sitcom called “Blossom” back in the early ’90s. I never watched it, but every time a commercial for it came on the announcer would declare it “A very special Blossom at eight on NBC!” I noticed over time, they were saying that nearly every week. How many times can you go to that well, you know?

          • SAMURAI36

            You’re absolutely right. The reason those type of stories are so popular is because they used to be special and unusual. Now, it seems like every story is “A Very Special Story” because it’s something personal to the hero.

            Hmm, that’s a good point.

            I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember, but there used to be this saccharine sitcom called “Blossom” back in the early ’90s. I never watched it, but every time a commercial for it came on the announcer would declare it “A very special Blossom at eight on NBC!” I noticed over time, they were saying that nearly every week. How many times can you go to that well, you know?

            LOL. Yeah, I remember that show. And I vaguely remember that being the case as well.

            Hm, I dunno man, I think Batman is one of those few characters that can get away with those “personal” stories like that. It’s why he has one of the greatest supporting casts in all of comics. I think he’s one of the few characters that those personal stories should work for.

          • Lupin

            yh Batman is one of the most personal heroes in DC’s pantheon. Because his vigilantism is born of personal tragedy, he works better alone (w/ Alfred) and he’s modeled after the film noir private detective with inner monologues et al
            I would like to see them bring a strong Film Noir element to Batman complete with inner monologues. Won’t be easy to pull off, but he’s a character made for it and if theyre ambitious enough they can do it.

          • SAMURAI36

            I agree, with the exception of the inner monologue aspect. There is very little of that in the comics, & I think that’s why the various aspects of his supporting cast (especially the “Bat Family”) were continuously added to his mythos.
            I dunno, a monologuing Batman seems a bit weird to me. Almost like Adam West.

  • JMMagwood

    It’s so sweet to see some of the trolls here forming a sweetheart mutual admiration society.. Awwww… Enjoy your circle, “guys.”

  • JMMagwood

    Another thought: I would almost bet money that the “Justice League” movie is going to reflect what we’re going to see in Affleck’s “Batman” movie. I bet the digitally darkened tones are going to be reigned in, and we’ll see more color, and perhaps a little more contrasting performances that we might get with Zack on his own. Kind of like the difference between Frank Miller and Steve Englehart on Batman. Both great, but one slightly more fantastic and thrilling than the other.

    • flavortang

      I think Larry Fong, the DP, was one of the casualties of the BvS reception: I thought he would’ve been a lock to lens JL but he’s out. I think WB was trying to figure out went wrong and threw out one of the few guys they felt was expendable, the cinematographer. Maybe now they think “The movie will be more colorful, hence better!” which I never understood because both MoS and BvS were gorgeously shot.

      • JMMagwood

        I agree, but I do think “Justice League” should have a slightly different look than its predecessors. They seem to indicate a more positve tone for the movie, so I’m (possibly incorrectly assuming) that the heroic archetypes will be more on display here against the threats that are being assembled, so a brighter, more clear contrast might be called for.

        • SAMURAI36

          I think we should all wait for SS, before we get a feel of what the different looks for the films will be like. I personally am fine with the gritty look and tone for the DCEU.

          • JMMagwood

            From the trailers, “SS” does have a slightly different look from “BvS.” I’m guessing “Wonder Woman” will have a look even further from “BvS.” Not radical departures, mind you, just subtle changes in tones, contrasts, colors, etc. that fit where the overall story of the shared universe is at the moment.

          • SAMURAI36

            Yeah, I do agree that it’s not a radical departure. And I personally wouldn’t want it to be. The DCEU shouldn’t be this rainbow collage of different ideas and presentations. It wouldn’t be a cohesive universe if it was.

            For me, it’s kinda like with the comics, where all publishers (but especially DC) have something known as the “house style” when it comes to their art, paneling, etc.

            The DCEU established their house style with MOS, and I would like to see it continue, even if only with some minor differences here and there.

          • Fenix

            How about they just turn off the damn Instagram filter Snyder loves to use on his movies.

          • SAMURAI36

            I have no idea what that means. But I like the visual aesthetic of Snyder’s films.

          • Fenix

            Snyder always uses a color correction filter on his DC movies which makes them appear desaturated. It makes them look drab.

          • SAMURAI36

            That’s your opinion, & your entitled to it. Like I said, I like it. It looks different from everything else that’s out.

          • Lupin

            lol Larry Fong makes fun of people like you, they find it hilarious lmfao

          • Fenix

            And people make fun of the use of color desaturation and color correction. It’s why movies like Jurassic Park, made back in the early 90’s, look better than Jurassic World.

          • Lupin

            If you say so :) lol

          • Lupin

            This is Larry Fong’s response to your crying about color … you’re talking about color!
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cdcb59fef3be73e2509f33d37c59d3a6e55135b64ff9302f7dd0f46731d5da41.jpg

          • Lupin
          • Lupin
          • Lupin

            I think that what the DCEU is doing by having different auteur directors be free to do as they please with their stories is amazing.
            Suicide Squad visually looks like an Ayer film. Wonder Woman has that soft warm look and I can tell it’s going to be a period drama. I’m a bit curious as to how Jenkins will handle the action set pieces because Snyder sets a very high bar, Wonder Woman in BvS was the deadliest warrior.
            I would love to see old man George Miller on Cyborg or Ridley Scott.
            I really hope that Edgar Wright somehow is able to be the director for ‘The Flash’. It would be amazing to see his fresh pop culture style add some real diversity to the tone of more serious DCEU films. It would be a true testament to their vision if they can incorporate something like that, but still make it different from MARVEL’s stuff.

          • SAMURAI36

            Agreed to all points. Especially your descriptions of the different directors & their personal takes.
            And yes, E. Weight would ne a prize catch for DC.

        • flavortang

          Yeah, exactly. I think it’s actually pretty predictable that, after BvS, the WB execs said “They complained it was too dark so let’s get a new DP!”

          I think it’s sad that people think the tone of a movie is dark is the colors are slightly muted, lol, but whatever. I’m down for a colorful DCEU! Sh!t, man, I want to see the DCEU EXPLODE; I want kids buying the toys and cosplaying as Booster Gold or Vixen or some of the Metal Men or Etrigan, running around with GL rings and such. I just want to see it thrive because I know in my heart how awesome the characters are. They just need to be delivered to the audience in the right way.

          • SAMURAI36

            People already run around with GL rings, because of the comics.

            However, I don’t think the DCEU is designed to “explode” in that manner. Disney sells Marvel toys, because the films those toys are based on, are marketed towards kids in the first place.

            It’s no different from how cartoons back in the 80’s were basically 30-minute commercials for toys; the MCU is basically a 2-hour commercial. Which is why Marvel doesn’t even have to try anymore with animation and video games; they make their money back with the films.

        • Lupin

          Actually Chris Terrio himself said in a WSJ interview that BvS is the ‘Empire Strikes Back’ of the saga and that it was dark. He said that he consciously wrote JLPt1 to bring the saga back into the light.
          Wagner is an amazing DoP, I can’t wait to see what he does with Snyder.
          SDCC this July is going to be so LIT!!!

      • Lupin

        Larry Fong was NOT a casualty lol There are NO casualties from BvS’ reception. Im not blind to the critical failure it was, but the idea that WB is panicking is false and manufactured by those with an agenda … the usual suspects.
        I have spoken to Fong himself and there is a schedule conflict with Kong Skull island, which he is currently working on right now as Zack is working on Justice League.
        It is a blessing in disguise though because we will get to see a saga that is quite different visually. MoS, BvS and JLPt1, Fong should be back for JLPt2 is Snyder is kept on, pending JLPt1’s reception.

  • flavortang

    Cannot wait for more.

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      • flavortang

        F#CKING DIE ALREADY, PLEASE.

        • Lupin

          LMFAO Sorry but you have to take this ‘L’ bro
          I always see the unfortunate person that gets the marketing comment as the loser in the comments section ahaha

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